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Trial of Leaves: Justin
TribeTwelve: Bridge to Nowhere
Dark Harvest: Log Entry #33
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 Tribe Twelve viewers

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xyzombie
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PostSubject: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:44 am

It seems that whenever somebody attacks the quality of this series from a technical standpoint, your feathers all get ruffled, and you feel the need to "debate" these somewhat technical issues or down vote posts that include them. While that's all fair and dandy, given that most of this site supports this nonsensical behavior, it irks me to no end. I feel like it's impossible to down-talk Noah Maxwell or even Adam Rosner at all without everybody being all over his dick. Once I criticized the story line element of focusing on a specific date for months and months while he released pieces of it at a time. Nimbus/Adam responded to my post here - not addressing the issue of plot error that I was discussing - but rather attacking me for not "understanding" because I supposedly didn't watch "the twitter or the livestream or all the other work" he had done, though I had. I wasn't claiming it didn't make sense, I just claimed it was not a strong maneuver from a story telling aspect, and didn't understand why the hype and focus. He then apologized, which was nice, though he still didn't admit any fault. The fans (granted, not all of them, but a vast majority of them - both here and on other media ports) are the same way. They're quick to attack somebody without basis, they cannot see any wrong doing at all throughout the series, or the character, or the person, they just consume. It's disgusting. Example, on the newest video, ShadowTurtleInc posted a response - claiming it was "a little stretched out" - verdict: immediately down voted. How dare they agree with king Rosner's choices!? Meanwhile, all somebody has to say is "it was good" and they get praised for it. That's how it reads to me anyways. I commented on Milo's Tape, breaking down my beef with some of the aspects of it, and granted - it was a bit excessive, I felt like they were things that needed to be said. I'm fine with people not agreeing with it, but it seems childish to put your hands over your ears and say "I can't hear you" while somebody is trying to discuss things that could be improved with a web series that has so much potential. That's the heartbreaking thing of it all - with Adam's video editing ability, it's a shame that the series isn't better than it is. I'm not certain if it's only a specific age group within the fan base, so I'm sorry if I've lumped any of you into this clique of Tribehards, but it's just silly to me. The entire antithesis to discussing the quality would be - New video comes out - everybody just says "wow" or "good" - nothing is gained, nothing is debated, nothing is critiqued. Is that what we want this website to become? I don't notice the same thing from the other major video trailheads. If somebody talks smack about Jay as a character, people generally agree, if they discuss how hard to follow EMH is after the fact - given how multi media it is, the fandom generally goes "uh, yeah, it's rough, you kinda had to be there for the minecraft map" or whatever else, but TribeTwelve is some untouchable entity.
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:40 pm

Wait what? o.O
Oh well, of course a series can be discussed and it´s good to critisize something or some aspects when you don´t like it, but what did you expect? That everyone directly agrees with you and that Adam completely rewrites and redoes his series to suit your personal likings? Just like you have the right to critisize it, others do have the right to like what they see. But i see where you are coming from, this side clearly needs more discussion again, especially in the TT part.

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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:07 pm

It seems in the Slenderverse, even we aren't safe from fandumb.
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:09 pm

lolitics wrote:
It seems in the Slenderverse, even we aren't safe from fandumb.
No fandom is safe..no fandom at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:36 pm

I would chalk this up to fandumb as well. Most of the criticisms I've seen you post are valid, even if I don't agree with them. That being said, defending a series from criticism is fine as long as it's done for better reasons than "how dare you criticize this".
(Also, I realize how dumb my "this is good" post was. Next time I'm too tired to think of anything, I'll just not post.)
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:47 pm

Peppercorn no that´s not the right way, if you like something you can still say that you like it. The same goes for not liking a thing.
You can later still edit the post to add more things why you liked/not liked it.

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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:29 pm

Pep, you can totally still just say that you like a thing, that's not what I'm saying at all. I was comparing how much praise that sort of thing generally gets than when somebody disagrees with a TT entry. I'm not expecting Adam Rosner to fix the series based off of my opinions, it's his to do with as he pleases, and I'm not expecting everybody to side with me. Maybe somebody though? Sometimes? Also, this whole issue of down-voting is silly, it's like being rewarded for agreeing with the masses, and being punished for speaking your mind. Though I don't really get the point of win votes in general. I'll just chalk all this to fandumb, as the many posters here have said. I really appreciate the lack of any sort of all-out-war TT-response like I was anticipating. Thank you all.
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:45 pm

all-out-war TT-responses are not our style ;D

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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:15 am

To me, there is a spectrum of politeness that comes when giving a critique of a series work, and from what I saw of your opinion in the Milo tape was that it seemed you were expecting almost utmost perfection and gave an entirely negative review that was unnecessarily a bit rude. It's fine to have criticism of something (so long as there's suggestions to help make it better that go along with it) but to me it felt like you had some sort of personal grudge instead of trying to point out what was wrong. There's not a lot of criticism of Tribe Twelve because it is indeed a great series, but I will admit some of what you and others have said has had me look out for bad points of the series (even though they're minor) such as Noah's way of speaking that seems overacted at times and how the older members of his family seem to have some sort of strange habit to wave their hands around when speaking (I was laughing when Mary Asher did this). But just because blood didn't come out of a gunshot wound entirely realistically, Milo's voice sounds more like a chronic smoker than a slit throat, or a gunshot being just slightly unrealistic (DarkHarvest is a lot worse, it has shotgun sounds for pistols and submachine guns -_-) doesn't make the entry bad and cause it to be a problem that needs dire improvement. In regards to winvotes, they're just something that can help in gauging what other's think and they don't punish or reward anyone either way, so it's not something to worry much about.
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:21 pm

I may as well address it here, as it has come up multiple times. The Win-Point system is, the way I look at it, kind of like Reddit's Upvote-Downvote system. It's there not to reward or punish, more of a way for users to show there appreciation or dislike of a certain topic or post that someone has made. It in no way count toward any sort of reward at the end of the day, it's merely there to show appreciation or lack thereof of a certain topic or post, nothing more and nothing less. 

If you do have a particular grievance against the Win-Point system, do PM me. I will listen to what is being said and take it into consideration. After all, this is your site as well, and I ALWAYS value, appreciate, and encourage feedback and suggestions. 


Much love,

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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:27 am

The Doctor wrote:
I may as well address it here, as it has come up multiple times. The Win-Point system is, the way I look at it, kind of like Reddit's Upvote-Downvote system. It's there not to reward or punish, more of a way for users to show there appreciation or dislike of a certain topic or post that someone has made. It in no way count toward any sort of reward at the end of the day, it's merely there to show appreciation or lack thereof of a certain topic or post, nothing more and nothing less. 

If you do have a particular grievance against the Win-Point system, do PM me. I will listen to what is being said and take it into consideration. After all, this is your site as well, and I ALWAYS value, appreciate, and encourage feedback and suggestions. 


Much love,

The Doctor

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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:41 am

He also makes good coffee Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:38 am

I was gonna write something similar to this but it seems Mr. Zombie has covered pretty much all of my ramblings… I guess I wasn't the only one! And he even covered my post that kind of got an (in my opinion) unfair response… well there ya go
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:44 pm

JustinDGBZ wrote:
I will admit some of what you and others have said has had me look out for bad points of the series (even though they're minor) such as Noah's way of speaking that seems overacted at times and how the older members of his family seem to have some sort of strange habit to wave their hands around when speaking (I was laughing when Mary Asher did this). But just because blood didn't come out of a gunshot wound entirely realistically, Milo's voice sounds more like a chronic smoker than a slit throat, or a gunshot being just slightly unrealistic (DarkHarvest is a lot worse, it has shotgun sounds for pistols and submachine guns -_-) doesn't make the entry bad and cause it to be a problem that needs dire improvement.

I respect your opinions on the matter, though here's my beef with what you just said.

1) You had to put down a smaller series to make TT look better. Given that I am not a professional at gunshot sounds, the loud booms that happen when the DarkHarvest boys are being shot at does not in any way ruin immersion for me.

2) You missed the point entirely! Good job! You basically took my criteria for what makes an entry bad, and said "well NUH-UH! IT'S GREAT!" The issue for me is that if something is bad enough that I'm laughing at it because of numerous Out Of Game reasons, it's not a good entry. Good entries have me there, in the series, nervous with the protag, viewing the world through their eyes, or rather, their camera's eye. The thing about DarkHarvest, granted it's kind of a late-game series, is that I actually feel bad for the main characters when bad shit happens to them because they're like-able, they address real issues, and OOG their acting is realistic. EverymanHYBRID, as disjointed as it is, also has the same thing going for him. Who doesn't feel bad for Vinny in the EMH fandom right now? However, Noah's character doesn't evoke the same emotional response at all. He's not like-able, nor intelligent (for a college student) and quickly hostile. Adam Rosner's acting makes MH Jay's decision making seem realistic. He pulled the unreliable narrator card far to early in the series - unlike Marble Hornets who waited for their fans to get towards the end, then made them question everything they had seen up to that point. Also, Noah's becoming a God, why should anything even worry him anymore? I'm sorry that our views have to be so different, and as I said before I respect that you don't see things as I do, but can you at least see why these things irk me so?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know that this series is free. I'm aware that Adam Rosner is making it out of the goodness of his heart. For that I am grateful. I know that independent film-making has its limitations. I'd never dis a series for being limited like that. I will however continue to watch all the series that I have been watching, and practically be forced to compare them to each other, and hold them to the same standards, because what else can I compare them to?
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:58 am

xyzombie wrote:
JustinDGBZ wrote:
I will admit some of what you and others have said has had me look out for bad points of the series (even though they're minor) such as Noah's way of speaking that seems overacted at times and how the older members of his family seem to have some sort of strange habit to wave their hands around when speaking (I was laughing when Mary Asher did this). But just because blood didn't come out of a gunshot wound entirely realistically, Milo's voice sounds more like a chronic smoker than a slit throat, or a gunshot being just slightly unrealistic (DarkHarvest is a lot worse, it has shotgun sounds for pistols and submachine guns -_-) doesn't make the entry bad and cause it to be a problem that needs dire improvement.

I respect your opinions on the matter, though here's my beef with what you just said.

1) You had to put down a smaller series to make TT look better. Given that I am not a professional at gunshot sounds, the loud booms that happen when the DarkHarvest boys are being shot at does not in any way ruin immersion for me.

2) You missed the point entirely! Good job! You basically took my criteria for what makes an entry bad, and said "well NUH-UH! IT'S GREAT!" The issue for me is that if something is bad enough that I'm laughing at it because of numerous Out Of Game reasons, it's not a good entry. Good entries have me there, in the series, nervous with the protag, viewing the world through their eyes, or rather, their camera's eye. The thing about DarkHarvest, granted it's kind of a late-game series, is that I actually feel bad for the main characters when bad shit happens to them because they're like-able, they address real issues, and OOG their acting is realistic. EverymanHYBRID, as disjointed as it is, also has the same thing going for him. Who doesn't feel bad for Vinny in the EMH fandom right now? However, Noah's character doesn't evoke the same emotional response at all. He's not like-able, nor intelligent (for a college student) and quickly hostile. Adam Rosner's acting makes MH Jay's decision making seem realistic. He pulled the unreliable narrator card far to early in the series - unlike Marble Hornets who waited for their fans to get towards the end, then made them question everything they had seen up to that point. Also, Noah's becoming a God, why should anything even worry him anymore? I'm sorry that our views have to be so different, and as I said before I respect that you don't see things as I do, but can you at least see why these things irk me so?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know that this series is free. I'm aware that Adam Rosner is making it out of the goodness of his heart. For that I am grateful. I know that independent film-making has its limitations. I'd never dis a series for being limited like that. I will however continue to watch all the series that I have been watching, and practically be forced to compare them to each other, and hold them to the same standards, because what else can I compare them to?
1. I'm not putting down any series, I love DarkHarvest just as much as I do TribeTwelve and don't consider it smaller at all. I was using them as an example to show that TribeTwelve isn't as bad when it comes to some aspects in comparison to other series that are just as big and successful as TribeTwelve, but it seems me and you don't have the same opinion of DarkHarvest of just how big it is. Although I also assumed that since you seem to know the realism of gunshot wounds you'd also know other realistic things about guns.

2. Maybe perhaps we're missing the point of each other's posts. I pointed out, and agreed of there being, some of the negative points of the series but didn't think they were as severe as you make them out to be. It's possible that Adam Rosner is purposely making specific aspects laughable for comedic relief. Not every protagonist has to be fearful of everything going on or have horrible occurrences happen despite that seeming to be common in Slender-series. Noah is not always a likable character but I enjoy watching him do what he does, similar to how I hate what Trevor Philips does in Grand Theft Auto 5 but I still enjoy playing as him. I think Vinny has been sitting on his ass for two or three years and needs to do something instead of acting like a wimp to HABIT and hiding in a corner for so long, so I don't feel sorry for him; all of his friends are dead and it doesn't seem he has any family left (other than Evan who isn't even himself most of the time), so what does he have to lose? Noah is quite a unique character in the Slenderverse. While many can identify with the fear that other protagonists have, I feel it'd be more realistic to have more protagonists be angry and frustrated at their situation and lash out (Marble Hornets seems to be the only series that does this which may be a result of Slendersickness so I'm not sure it counts; I suppose Alex from DarkHarvest is the only other example?). In regards to unreliable narrators, to me that makes the series more unpredictable to have an unreliable narrator so soon instead of later because with the latter it allows for retcons to be made and can add to confusion, and Marble Hornets is already really damn confusing when trying to analyze it. Noah's credibility for having to worry really depends on what your opinion on fate and predetermined destiny is, and Firebrand is trying to change Noah's fate anyways so we don't know what can change or still happen; if his life isn't on a set path he can still die and not become Firebrand.

I can respect having a critical view, but I guess I don't understand why you're being so nitpicky. Although sometimes I also like to debate whenever I have differing opinions compared to others. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:22 pm

Quote :
I think Vinny has been sitting on his ass for two or three years and needs to do something instead of acting like a wimp to HABIT and hiding in a corner for so long

I think most people would be hiding in the corner if everybody they knew had been murdered and they were clearly going to be the next.
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:41 pm

I've tried joining the TribeTwelve fandom multiple times and I'm always chased out by the assholes in it. Especially the groups on Facebook, they are typically run by Adam's most assaholic friends.

Same with Marble Hornets too, to be honest. Got attacked by Tim once.

I try to stay away from them.


Last edited by Todesfurcht on Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:31 pm

Adam on Tumblr is seemingly a nice guy, who responds to criticism well, as I commented a while back on the Firebrand's appearance in "Extraordinary Circumstances" and he took it into account. The problem was, apparently I wasn't polite enough giving constructive criticism and two fuckers kept anon-ing my ask box telling me to fuck off, and that I didn't know anything about making a series or acting. (This is ironic, considering I am in my fourth year of high school theatre and my sixth year of theatre overall.) I'll say it again. FANDUMB.
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:03 am

lolitics wrote:
Adam on Tumblr is seemingly a nice guy, who responds to criticism well


Spoiler:
 


I guess after some prodding and prying, he responds well to criticism. Looking back, this entire thread has kind of been an ongoing issue, as the above thread was from March 19, 2012.
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:44 pm

I feel that the reason why this happens is because Adam interacts with his fans a great amount, so many of his fans feel like they have a personal connection with him, thus defending his work through that same connection.
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:35 pm

previous conversation between xyzombie and JustinDGBZ:
 

Hi, Justin. I'm John, and I feel like there's a lot we need to talk about. Let's debate, yeah?

This is very long sorry Very Happy:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:24 pm

crazythatcounts wrote:
previous conversation between xyzombie and JustinDGBZ:
 

Hi, Justin. I'm John, and I feel like there's a lot we need to talk about. Let's debate, yeah?

This is very long sorry :
 
I'll hate to be Justin right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:32 pm

While I agree with you, crazythatcounts, there is just a few things you seem to forget to take into consideration. I'm just going off of what pops into my head first, so this really will not have any structure, other than a list:

1.) Be it intentional or not, I find it a little abrasive that you seem to be saying, "The opinions that you have aren't really correct to have." It just rubs me the wrong way, as everyone is entitled to their opinion on any given series they follow. This is just the way I saw it, I completely understand if it is so very much not what you intended to do. 

2.) This quote here: " then DarkHarvest cannot be a big series. It is not an opinion." Actually, it IS an opinion. While the numbers and figures are a great reference, what makes a series "big" is not the numbers, it is the fans. I could watch something once and talk about it for AGES. It's up to the fandom at large how big a series is. I would consider DarkHarvest a rather big series, myself. I cannot go anywhere in the Verses' regular haunts without hearing about it. Meanwhile, TT is really only discussed whenever a new video comes out. Once again, my opinion, I'm just voicing it. 

3.) "That gunshot wound is so bad it's laughable." You seem to be failing to take into consideration the budgets, time constraints, and availability of props/supplies. This goes for every series that is not funded through any other means but the creators themselves. The budget comes straight out of their own pockets and as such, you have to allow a little leeway in terms of Suspension of Disbelief. I mean, if the blood did not run exactly right in terms of the normal laws of physics and gravity, it's for one of two reasons. Either the creator did, in fact, make a mistake and therefore is to blame or the materials they had to work with would not act and react the same as normal blood would. No matter which is the case, it is up to the viewer to decide if this is something they can put up with or not. If they can, good on them. If not, then maybe they should try another series which does have effects they can accept. 


Once more, this is all my opinion, which in no way reflects anyone else's. I love a good debate, which is why I bring these points up. I'm sure there are a few points I've missed, but that is just how it is. If you notice any, please do bring them up and they will be addressed accordingly.


P.S.: As Cheftain1 posted before mine went through, I will address his post here and now. I will not condone any verbal bashing of any kind. If you love TT, that's great. If you start to flame others for there love of it with no reason other than you like it and they don't, then you will be in a heap of trouble. Granted, if that DID happen, I'd rather it be here, my point still stands.
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:52 pm

The Doctor wrote:



P.S.: As Cheftain1 posted before mine went through, I will address his post here and now. I will not condone any verbal bashing of any kind. If you love TT, that's great. If you start to flame others for there love of it with no reason other than you like it and they don't, then you will be in a heap of trouble. Granted, if that DID happen, I'd rather it be here, my point still stands.
I never meant to flame or bash others because they don't like something that I do and I didn't meant my post to be that. I actually agree with some points that crazythatcounts brought up and I don't hate Justin. What I actually meant by my post was that I just find very very long posts very scary and I would probably or dislike to argue with all of it,mayber I should've said that in my post ( I'm saying crazy is not  wrong with his/her  opinion). I don't disrespect craythatcount's  or Justin's opinion and I never meant to bash them.
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PostSubject: Re: Tribe Twelve viewers   Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:05 pm

I am so sorry, Chieftain. I think my post got lost in translation. I didn't mean to say YOU were bashing anything, at all! Far from it, you actually helped to remind me to put that in my post so no one would period. Lol, you're good my friend!
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